On the Radio

[libertango]

pecunium posted about an interview he did for radio. The show is Justice Talking, and the topic for him is the usefulness (or lack thereof) of torture in interrogations. It's admirable because he manages to make his point without using the phrase "movie plot."

This is an .MP3 of the whole show. This is an .MP3 of only Terry's segment.

The show as a whole starts off with John Yoo. What's striking, especially listening to it after hearing Terry, is that Yoo doesn't even appear to be justifying the sweeping anti-constitutional doctrines he espouses on the basis of usefulness. No, he appears to be taking the tack of starting with the conclusion that The President Has Broad Powers In Wartime, and then backfilling his argument from there. A classic of, If the facts don't fit the theory, they must be disposed of. Very French, if we are to believe Adam Gopnik, and his idea that a French newspaper would hire "Theory Checkers" rather than fact checkers.

Listening to Terry, though, leaves one with the idea that torture just doesn't work empirically, on its own terms. So much so, that I can't think of a single historical instance where it has. I suspect if I was in a public debate with someone advocating torture, I'd probably ask them to cite three examples where it has worked. I'd even leave aside current operations, to not let people's opinions on Iraq to get in the way -- just name three incidents historically. (There's also the minor problem that many of the advocates of torture who have putative expertise are also the practitioners of torture, and so have a vested self-interest in puffing their own records, regardless of real-world outcomes.)

I don't think they could do one. (But, in that internet way, I invite you to do the same now.)

Comments

[radven.livejournal.com]

It seems to work all the time for Jack Baur...

Distortion

[hal-obrien.livejournal.com]

"It seems to work all the time for Jack Baur..."

Which is a good example of how 24 distorts reality so strongly, you'd think it was written by Steve Jobs.

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

Here's an indirect reference to one:

http://jef.raskincenter.org/published/torture.html

Problem

[hal-obrien.livejournal.com]

Here's the problem with that story:

I can't find any confirmation that it happened.

Here are the search terms I've been using on Google:

Searched for bomb Colombo "train station" three
Searched for bomb Colombo "train station" "after shooting" defuse
Searched for bomb Colombo "train station" "after shooting" defused
Searched for bomb Colombo "train station" shooting defused
Searched for bomb Colombo "train station" shooting
Searched for bomb Colombo "train station"
Searched for bomb Colombo "central train station"
Searched for bomb Colombo central train station
Searched for "defused bomb after shooting"
Searched for tamil bomb shooting defused captured
Searched for tamil bomb shooting defused

That page by the late Mr. Raskin shows up, but no other account of such an incident does.

So, pending evidence to the contrary, it appears Matt Miller heard something anecdotal and passed it along without checking if it was true, and Raskin was honest enough to write it up as part of his account of the radio piece they were both on.

Not that a journalist would ever be so lazy to do that. {cough}

If your Google-fu is strongly than mine (or Factiva-fu), I'd welcome it.

(And that's not meant facetiously. "Everything is provisional, pending better data," is a watchword of mine {for all that I'd like a more elegant way to phrase it}.)

Problem

[hal-obrien.livejournal.com]

In fact, look at this story in the Int'l Herald Tribune. It's recent (Feb 2008), and it talks about how citizens of Colombo are in fear of bombings now, but...

"Although there was scattered violence in the south in recent years, much of it was far from Colombo and its 800,000 residents, or targeted government and military leaders. Many residents of Colombo shrugged off the violence.

But that complacency was shattered Nov. 28 (2007)..."

Given that Raskin died in early 2005, that means the radio piece took place earlier than that... and you'd think citizens of Colombo wouldn't be so complacent if they knew a bomb had been successfully planted in a central transit center used daily by thousands, and only foiled through the use of murder.

Re: Problem

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

I went over Google and NPR's website pretty heavily, but found nada. NPR.org did have several opinion pieces by Matt Miller, but 4:00 am would be too early even for the very beginning of Morning Ediiton, which never leads with editorials. Since he was able to give specific proper name details, I believe he did hear a certain item, but it is likely he mis-identified the source or the time. Perhaps he misspoke about hearing it then, and merely awakening at some early hour with alarm.

I will see if I can contact the current maintainers (if any) of his blog to see when the piece was posted.

Re: Problem

[hal-obrien.livejournal.com]

"NPR.org did have several opinion pieces by Matt Miller..."

I'm familiar with Miller. He's had a show on KCRW in Santa Monica called Left, Right, and Center for years now -- it's what Arianna Huffington did before The Huffington Post. It's why I'm mildly freaked by this -- he usually makes more sense than that.

Re: Problem

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

This may be the Atlantic article mentioned in Raskin's piece:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200201/hoffman

It refers to the strategically successful (if politically unsuccessful) campaign against the FLN in Algeria by French paratroops, who not just made visible progress but openly attributed their pacification success to intelligence gathered under duress.

Re: Problem

[notthebuddha.livejournal.com]

The Hoffman piece I liked elsewhere makes it plain that this was an anecdote related pre-9/11/2001 by the Sri Lankan authority who claimed to be the shooter. His real name was not given.

Re: Problem

[pecunium.livejournal.com]

Actually, the people doing it admitted they were being tactically successful, and that the only way to maintain things was to keep things at an awful level of repression.

Which, of course, had blowback. "The Battle of Algiers" puts this in pretty stark clarity.

TK