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Aug. 31st, 2001 10:52 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
libertangoMore from the Slate thread:
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Subject: RE: Don't you just love liberals...
From: Hal O'Brien
Date: Aug 31 2001 10:32 AM
"I do not trust government anymore than anyone else..."
The great strength (and great weakness) of the United States is that we're a democratic republic. This means that we are the government, and the government is us. We (collectively) have perhaps delegated certain administrative duties, but We The People are still the government.
I have absolute faith and trust in Americans as a people to govern ourselves.
"BUT until the oppressive dictators existing in the world today are gone and forgotten I do not believe that the United States should drop its guard, not yet and not now."
I said nothing about dropping our guard. I'm just asking for a realistic assessment of the threats to us.
"Saddam, Castro, and others like them are operating with a few bricks shy of a full load.
These types of people are the very definition of unstable. If this country drops it's guard now it would only be a matter of days before the forces these facist leaders control will be on our door step."
If they are a "few bricks shy" -- which I agree with -- how are they competent enough to be a threat? Both Saddam and Castro are barely able to control their own countries, and both have just about zero capability to project force, short of terrorism. Castro will soon be dead, and we'll see what happens. Saddam is in power both because we haven't removed him and because the Iraqi people are unwilling to remove him. (One dirty little secret about politics is that every regime, regardless of how oppressive it is, rules with the implicit consent of the governed. No army has ever been able to contain a sufficiently enraged population.)
"I am not an advocate of violence or war. Both are a terrible thing. But in order for there to be peace and harmony throughout the world the Saddams and Castros that exist need to be removed from power permanently. Once this is done then, and only then, will a dismantleing of our defense arsenal be justifiable."
No one here is advocating dismantling our defenses. We're only discussing their size and efficiency.
"As for our government, they have always been very questionable."
In the context of my comments above, No, we're not. I'm not. You're not. You and I, and all our fellow citizens, are the government.
"But my grandfather taught me a very important thing while I was growing up. You can never be honest with a liar and a cheat, if you are then you have become a traitor to yourself."
With all due respect, this sounds like the rationalization of someone who in his heart has always wanted to be a liar and a cheat. I disagree with it in the strongest possible terms.
"The old Soviet Union may have fallen but facism is still alive and well. If our government showed all of its cards then the facist governments in the world today would know how to bring this country down."
And this is manifestly untrue.
Secrecy is hardly ever conducted for strategic reasons. It's almost always conducted for the purposes of ego.
The military strategist Sun Tzu once said that one should only keep one's weaknesses secret. It is a measure of how overwhelmingly powerful the US is that we can be as open and free a society as we are. My wish is that we become stronger, so that what little secrecy we practice can be made unnecessary.
"Every president we have had has been dishonest in some way or another. This is only due to the state of the world."
No, it's due to the fallible nature of human beings. If you want perfection, the church is down the street.
"As for alias names. Don't hide - show your pride. Let the world know who you are and show those who have come here and succeeded that you are proud to be an American. Show these people that you are not afraid to express your opinion as granted you by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and that you will not hide behind anything."
And this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how America works.
The Constitution (of which the Bill of Rights is a part) does not grant us any powers or rights. Rather, the Constitution is the instrument through which We The People delegated some administrative duties, and restricts how those who perform those duties can exercise those delegated powers.
A quick example: Freedom of speech. The Constitution does not explicitly say that citizens have this freedom -- that would obvious -- rather, it restricts Congress from making any law that would infringe upon it. Sovereignty remains with us -- it is Congress that is constrained.
For the kinds of fears you write about, the only real threat is the complacency and apathy of citizens. Because only the citizens of the United States are powerful enough to undo all the good we have done for ourselves. No one else comes close.
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Subject: RE: Don't you just love liberals...
From: Hal O'Brien
Date: Aug 31 2001 10:32 AM
"I do not trust government anymore than anyone else..."
The great strength (and great weakness) of the United States is that we're a democratic republic. This means that we are the government, and the government is us. We (collectively) have perhaps delegated certain administrative duties, but We The People are still the government.
I have absolute faith and trust in Americans as a people to govern ourselves.
"BUT until the oppressive dictators existing in the world today are gone and forgotten I do not believe that the United States should drop its guard, not yet and not now."
I said nothing about dropping our guard. I'm just asking for a realistic assessment of the threats to us.
"Saddam, Castro, and others like them are operating with a few bricks shy of a full load.
These types of people are the very definition of unstable. If this country drops it's guard now it would only be a matter of days before the forces these facist leaders control will be on our door step."
If they are a "few bricks shy" -- which I agree with -- how are they competent enough to be a threat? Both Saddam and Castro are barely able to control their own countries, and both have just about zero capability to project force, short of terrorism. Castro will soon be dead, and we'll see what happens. Saddam is in power both because we haven't removed him and because the Iraqi people are unwilling to remove him. (One dirty little secret about politics is that every regime, regardless of how oppressive it is, rules with the implicit consent of the governed. No army has ever been able to contain a sufficiently enraged population.)
"I am not an advocate of violence or war. Both are a terrible thing. But in order for there to be peace and harmony throughout the world the Saddams and Castros that exist need to be removed from power permanently. Once this is done then, and only then, will a dismantleing of our defense arsenal be justifiable."
No one here is advocating dismantling our defenses. We're only discussing their size and efficiency.
"As for our government, they have always been very questionable."
In the context of my comments above, No, we're not. I'm not. You're not. You and I, and all our fellow citizens, are the government.
"But my grandfather taught me a very important thing while I was growing up. You can never be honest with a liar and a cheat, if you are then you have become a traitor to yourself."
With all due respect, this sounds like the rationalization of someone who in his heart has always wanted to be a liar and a cheat. I disagree with it in the strongest possible terms.
"The old Soviet Union may have fallen but facism is still alive and well. If our government showed all of its cards then the facist governments in the world today would know how to bring this country down."
And this is manifestly untrue.
Secrecy is hardly ever conducted for strategic reasons. It's almost always conducted for the purposes of ego.
The military strategist Sun Tzu once said that one should only keep one's weaknesses secret. It is a measure of how overwhelmingly powerful the US is that we can be as open and free a society as we are. My wish is that we become stronger, so that what little secrecy we practice can be made unnecessary.
"Every president we have had has been dishonest in some way or another. This is only due to the state of the world."
No, it's due to the fallible nature of human beings. If you want perfection, the church is down the street.
"As for alias names. Don't hide - show your pride. Let the world know who you are and show those who have come here and succeeded that you are proud to be an American. Show these people that you are not afraid to express your opinion as granted you by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and that you will not hide behind anything."
And this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how America works.
The Constitution (of which the Bill of Rights is a part) does not grant us any powers or rights. Rather, the Constitution is the instrument through which We The People delegated some administrative duties, and restricts how those who perform those duties can exercise those delegated powers.
A quick example: Freedom of speech. The Constitution does not explicitly say that citizens have this freedom -- that would obvious -- rather, it restricts Congress from making any law that would infringe upon it. Sovereignty remains with us -- it is Congress that is constrained.
For the kinds of fears you write about, the only real threat is the complacency and apathy of citizens. Because only the citizens of the United States are powerful enough to undo all the good we have done for ourselves. No one else comes close.
